1841 Census for ROMSEY, please!

[lightburn]

From the 1851 Census I have the following:-

172, Industry Row,Romsey.Hants.

Charles Leal aged Widow,aged 70 born I.O.W.
Sophia Leal aged 25, born Romsey.

I am trying to find other family members from the 1841 Census.

I have found the death of Charles Leal in 1858.......would it be possible to trace where Sophia went in the 1861 Census...I have picked up a possible Marriage for her in Devon (Kingsbridge area in 1862),but want to prove that it is the correct one.


Many thanks, Derek

[matfitz]

.....would it be possible to trace where Sophia went in the 1861 Census...I have picked up a possible Marriage for her in Devon (Kingsbridge area in 1862),but want to prove that it is the correct one.

Whom do you suspect she may have married? That may help find the couple in 1871 and see if her age and place of birth match.

At the moment I can't find anything relevant in 1841.

[lightburn]

Thanks for replying. I have the the following from B.D.M.
It looks like Kingsbridge area Devon for the 1871 if my search is correct.
A Sophia Lear marrying a James Andrews at Kingsbridge, Devon in 1862 and also found a James Andrews who died there in 1884 aged 73.
Cheers Derek....and nice to hear from you again.

[M. Laverty]

The IGI shows a Charles and Sarah LEAL christening Sophia LEAL, on 26 September, 1813 in Romsey, Hampshire.

There's also a Charles, age 55, and Sarah SEAL, age 55, in the 1841 census for Romsey Infra, with Charles being listed as a 'carrier'. That's the occupation listed for Charles LEAL in the 1851 census. Making allowances for the +/- 5 years of the 1841 census, it's possible that Charles SEAL/LEAL is the same person.

There's a Sophia LEAL in the 1841 census, age 24, living in Holy Rhood, Southampton, as a female servant.

I can't account for the discrepancy in age for Sophia in 1841, but she would seem to be the only appropriately aged Sophia born in Hampshire for the 1841 census who can be matched with Charles in 1851.

One of those hmmmms.

Margaret

[matfitz]

Well done Margaret - I missed that.

The LEAL/SEAL confusion is very possible - there are other children of Charles and Sarah LEAL who pop up as LEAL in some years and SEAL in others.

A possible sighting of Sophia in 1861:

Buckingham Vale, Clifton, Gloucestershire

Christiana HOYIER? head 63 house property Ireland
Charlotte HOYIER? sister 60 house property Shrewsbury
Sophia SEAL serv unm 41 servant Hants, Romsey

Again, the age is a poor match.

In 1881 there is a Sophia LISLE, born 1814 in Romsey, living in Sourton, Devon. The enumerator got himself in a bit of a muddle and her relationship to the head of the household is "widow" and her marital status is "unm". She was married to a James LISLE. Now then, FreeBMD gives marriages in Kingsbridge in Q3 1862 (page 5b 383)

James Andrews
Sophia Leal
James Lisle
Ann Shepherd

So how confident are you that Sophia LEAL married Jas ANDREWS and not Jas LISLE?

I suppose we ought to check to see if James ANDREWS is married to an Ann in 1871/81. And indeed, assuming they are the couple living in South Huish - which my map puts 2 or 3 miles SW of Kingsbridge - James ANDREWS (born c 1811) is married to an Ann.

[M. Laverty]

After some mindless muddling around, I had also gone back and checked FreeBMD, and also noticed that Sophia LEAL could have been married to James LISLE, but hadn't gotten as far as checking out that lead.

Looking at her various addresses, though, I will say that if this is the same Sophia--she did a tremendous amount of moving around the country!

What do you think, Derek?

Margaret

[lightburn]

Margaret and Matfitz,Many thanks for your efforts on my behalf and I have been trying to absorb it all and checking the details, and my humble conclusion is that,
1. The SOPHIE LEAL married to James Lisle is not mine because I cannot see her getting married for the first time in 1862 at the ripe old age of 49yrs.

2. The 1881 Census for Sarah Lisle(formerly Leal) aged 67 . I cannot establish a link with the Alford family,with whom she is staying.....but I like the Clifton one very much,even though her age is out......she should be 48 and it possible that her employers would not have known her true age AND I have found in Clifton,on the 1881 Census an ELIZA LEAL, (Widow) born Switzerland, AND GUESS WHAT.....SHE WAS MARRIED TO A CHARLES LEAL, AND GUESS WHAT!...SOPHIE,s FATHER was a CHARLES Leal, and I think that Sophie has moved to Clifton to be near her brother.

Can one of you brilliant helpers look at the 1871 Census for CLIFTON to check out the Charles and Eliz. Leal family(found Charles d.1867) but it will show where children born. Thanks for much, and then we can check up the 1861........Sincerely, Derek

[matfitz]

Looking at her various addresses, though, I will say that if this is the same Sophia--she did a tremendous amount of moving around the country!

If she is the child of Chas and Sarah, then one brother went to Yorkshire via
Islington, and one went to Westminster (working for the Duke and later Duchess of Norfolk), and her sister could well have gone to Kent (haven't traced this one thoroughly, but it is possible she married James LISLE's brother John). So wandering around does seem to have been in the LEAL blood.

We'll wait for Derek's judgement on all this.

[matfitz]

2. The 1881 Census for Sarah Lisle(formerly Leal) aged 67 . I cannot establish a link with the Alford family,with whom she is staying

She is not staying with the ALFORD family: she is a household on her own.

....but I like the Clifton one very much,even though her age is out......she should be 48 and it possible that her employers would not have known her true age AND I have found in Clifton,on the 1881 Census an ELIZA LEAL, (Widow) born Switzerland, AND GUESS WHAT.....SHE WAS MARRIED TO A CHARLES LEAL, AND GUESS WHAT!...SOPHIE,s FATHER was a CHARLES Leal, and I think that Sophie has moved to Clifton to be near her brother.

Can one of you brilliant helpers look at the 1871 Census for CLIFTON to check out the Charles and Eliz. Leal family(found Charles d.1867) but it will show where children born. Thanks for much, and then we can check up the 1861........Sincerely, Derek

In 1871 Eliza is already widowed. However, the oldest child, Lina, was born at Arundel - and Arundel Castle belongs - if I remember well - to the Duke of Norfolk. The remaining children were born at Pimlico, Knightsbridge, and Clifton.

Lina is the only one of their children who should be somewhere in the 1861 census, but it's not clear where.

Have you already somehow found Eliza's maiden name?

Found it: RAPIT

[matfitz]

Charles LEAL is with the Duchess in 1861 and is married.

Eliza is in Hill St, Westminster:

Eliza LEAL head mar 32 - Switzerland
L[ei]nna E LEAL dau unm 40 - Arundel
Erskine? Rapert LEAL dau unm 3 - Middlesex
Rosa Rapert LEAL dau unm 1 - Middlesex
Lydia FLOYD niece unm 18 - Hants
Maria BISHOP serv unm serv Middlesex

Ancestry think Erskine could be Evatine - I'm open to either.

I think we have to assume that Linna/Lenna was 4 rather than 40.

[M. Laverty]

They did move around!

Selina LEAL, born IOW, 1st quarter of 1851
Eveline Rapit LEAL, born St. George Hanover Square, 3rd quarter of 1857
Rosa Ra_it LEAL, born Westminster, 4th quarter 1859


So Derek, would you like to sum up for us who we are actually looking for here?

Margaret

[matfitz]

1. The SOPHIE LEAL married to James Lisle is not mine because I cannot see her getting married for the first time in 1862 at the ripe old age of 49yrs.

In 1861 James LISLE was a widower. In 1871 he was married to Sophie, aged 58 and born ROMSEY. I wouldn't dismiss her quite yet.

[M. Laverty]

In 1861 James LISLE was a widower. In 1871 he was married to Sophie, aged 58 and born ROMSEY. I wouldn't dismiss her quite yet.

It may not have been for the purpose of having children, either. Perhaps Sophia was simply tired of not being married, and James offered her a chance to be a respectable married woman, instead of 'just a servant'.

Sophia was listed as a widow in the 1881 census.

Margaret

[lightburn]

Marg. and Matfitz,
Have found the christening of LENA LEAL...it was under the name of LINNA ELISA LEAL at Arundel,1856 (father Charles Leal and Elisa Charlotte Susanne.....whose birth and family I have found in Switzerland)....but the best for me, has to be a long-time mystery that as now been solved.

On the Westminster 1861, you show a LYDIA FLOYD ag.18..b. Hants.....she married in 1865 ,my Great- Grandfather Joseph Buckard at Kensington, and for years I have wondered how she was in London from Romsey.
The mother of LYDIA FLOYD was formerly MARIA LEAL (the sister of Charles Leal), and that is why NIECE is shown under Eliza LEAL(The wife of Charles LEAL.).

Matfitz.......can you send details of 1861 Census for Charles Leal please.



And as you say, Margaret,I am going to have to sit back and log all this valuable info......which has solved many queries for me,because of both your help............Kind Regards, Derek

[M. Laverty]

Hoorah!

Love it when we get those brickwalls to tumble :D .

Margaret

[matfitz]

Matfitz.......can you send details of 1861 Census for Charles Leal please.

Done by email.